Just finished Terminator:TSCC HELP! W/SPOILERS

cayman shen

Ah man, I just got to the end...no more.

There were ups and downs in the series, and as with anything involving time travel, some continuity issues. But overall, I just thought it was fantastic.

I searched for other threads on the show, but couldn't find them in this section.

Can we have a spoiler discussion about how it ended, where it was going, and how it segues into T3/4?

SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!








So the end of the last episode, he's in the future, never became the savior of humanity.

Cameron's there. But is it the human she was based on or the metal?

There's another time travel flash, Sarah says "I love you too." Was she travelling forward to meet him? What happened there?

Help me make sense of all this. I really loved this show, but the last ten minutes baffled me. I'm guessing there was another season planned? Or did they intend to end it with so many questions?

SSgt Burton

She's the human- the dog isn't freaking out.

Did Sarah make it to the future too? I'm not sure.

Far as I know there was a 3rd season planned, but Fox pulled the plug. We're left with nothing but the cliffhanger.

As for T3/T4- the initial jump forward to 2007 (2008?) in the pilot episode effectively skips over all the events of T3- essentially they didn't occur in this timeline.

Can't really comment on T4. Hated that film. And I think this film is partially to thank for Fox pulling the plug on T:TSCC- the direction the show was headed in didn't gel with the "summer-blockbuster-we're-gonna-be-rich" film.


Unfortunately there are no answers. Much like what happened to the crew at the end of Space: Above and Beyond.


Kevin

GotWookiee

It was a pretty good show. I really enjoyed it. The ending threw me, though. I was really interested in this unaligned T-1000. It was interesting to see the time travel stuff taken to the next level. It went from "Kill John Connor" to Connor and Skynet playing a giant chess game involving time travel. I also liked how much they fleshed out the future war.

It's worth pointing out that with all the time travel craziness, T3 and T4 could have eventually been sequels of a sort to T:SCC. Damn shame that they canned it. But remember, this is Fox: it's what they do.

cayman shen

OK I agree, I figured it was the real "Cameron" because of the dog. Nice that John can be with her as a human. A lot of my friends complained about the sexual tension (oh my god he's falling for the Terminator it's like Dawson's Creek!) but I thought that was one of the most intriguing aspects of the show. He knows she's a robot, but he still can't help, as a teenage boy, having confused feelings about this willowy hottie who is more or less there to serve him/lavish attention on him/protect him. Of course his feelings are in a whirl.

I can see T3 being wiped out by this, yeah. Burton, I was pretty lukewarm about T4 as well, but now that I've seen the show, and seen how intelligent and cerebral the concept could have become, it's even more disappointing. T2 added so much depth and complexity and character to a "stalk and kill" original. T3, meh, not bad, but a bit of a let down, but T4 was just a huge lost opportunity.

Now how about that SECOND time travel flash at the end, followed by Sarah's "I love you too"? Was that just a last minute add on because the plug was pulled, trying to make a poignant moment? If so, what excatly happened there? Did she travel? Was it someone else travelling and a voice over? Gaaaah!

The Scottish T-1000 eventually being more or less a good guy really threw me. GotWookiee, the chess theme running through the whole show was apt. As long arcs go, this show managed to handle them fairly well. Some shows (I'm looking at you, X-Files) get tangled up in their own sub-plots. This one seemed to do ok. Like I said, there were up and down moments.

So I fell in love with this show and they yanked it early. Not quite as evil as killing Firefly, but still...thanks, Fox. I hope you all get hemmorhoids.

corranhornjje

I like to think that he spent most of the war as a normal grunt fighting and gaining experience and then somehow returned to his original time with all the experience and training so he could be an effective leader for the war to come.

pennausamike

I liked the show a lot.

The flash at the end was Sarah's voice carrying through the time machine,
I don't think SHE traveled.
John Connor could still become the leader he was destined to be.
He would have a lot of knowledge about scenarios and tech that would help the human resistance.
He might also "get the girl", because he could warn Cameron to avoid the whole "getting captured" thing.

One of the elements that intrigued me was the whole, can a machine have a soul, thing.

Mike

cayman shen

But right before she spoke, there was a SECOND, distinct time travel flash. Wasn't there?!

pennausamike

I took that to be an aftershock kinda thing that let her voice carry through, but not Sarah herself.

The fascinating thing to me was the development of the AI.
Looking for morality, purpose, feelings.
It was like they realized how dead and meaningless their world was,
where the only purpose was the destruction of humanity.
Once humanity was gone, what then?

I'll have to dig out my posts from the old T:SCC board and copy/paste them on here.
Maybe of interest, maybe not...

Mike

firesprite

I'm totally with you on this, Caymen. I avoided watching the show when it aired because I didn't want the rug pulled out from under me, but then I netflixed the show and just fell in love with it.

Unfortunately, it's just strengthened my resolve to avoid watching anything Fox produces until it has at least 3-4 seasons in the can because I can't stand them doing this to me AGAIN!

cayman shen

Yeah, I was watching three or four episodes a night on Netflix, then I had to slow it down, savor it, because you could see the list of episodes getting shorter and shorter...

My two ex-wives are both huge Friends fans. Must be nice to have ten full seasons of a show you love. Yup, 200 some odd episodes. Yup indeedy...

SSgt Burton

(This is just my opinion of course)

Considering that the T-1001 (Shirley Manson) protected Connor and company from a Skynet attack...

It is my belief that the "Turk" which eventually becomes "John Henry" is meant as an "anti-Skynet" computer. One which is able to empathise with the humans (being more than just a cold calculating machine), and "smart" enough to go head to head with Skynet.

So all this time Sarah is chasing The Turk, thinking it is going to become Skynet (in which several people die in the process)... when it actually is being developed as an opponent to Skynet! The plot thickens!

Only to have the damn show pulled.


Kevin

ONEYE

I miss the show.

MooCriket

Miss it as well. It was such a bummer how they killed off Kyle's bro.

cayman shen

Yeah, it was so abrupt! Just bam! Down! I wonder if that was last minute when they found the show was being yanked, or if it was already filmed by then to make future Derek more poignant. I was more bummed that Charlie (the almost step-dad) bit it. I really warmed up to that poor, caught in the crossfire fella. I was glad Jesse got capped though (we presume, not having been shown it) as well as Riley. I thought they both sucked! Not that they hurt the show, I just thought they were totally out to screw up John's life, so...pop em!

SVTStingRay

yeah greatest moments for me was the whole connor first talking to derek about the future, then confronting jesse, and the derek/jesse confrontation......it ended and i was OH ****!

CTF

Jim Cameron must be rolling in his grave.

firesprite

Uh, last I heard, he was still alive.. unless I missed something.

cayman shen

After Avatar...Jim Cameron's talent must be rolling in its grave

pennausamike

I agree that John Henry was meant to be the anti-Skynet.
My story preference is that the machines reach a point
where the casual taking of life becomes a moral dilemma for them;
one they can't reconcile with their original programming.
Maybe even to the point where all AI refuses to be used for military applications,
thus turning the tables on their human creators by refusing to commit violence.
Think if Skynet became self aware and refused to launch anything?
People would have to take all AI out of the military loop.

I admit it, I don't want to see the future war as the only inevitable fate of mankind.
I would find it far more interesting to see Sarah FAIL at stopping the creation of Skynet level AI,
but have the unexpected outcome of her meddling with fate be AI that desires to work WITH mankind.

We have already been shown that in the TSCC world, timelines do change.
Judgment Day was put off.
Jesse remembered a future person that Derek did not (because they killed him).
Having AI that chooses to co-exist with mankind doesn't mean a sunshine and posies future;
just a new set of conflicts and problems to be resolved.
Sometimes with diplomacy, sometimes with violence;
just like it is in a flesh-people only world.
(And that would be a morph to another, different series...)

Why is the T-1001 (Catherine Weaver, CEO of ZeiraCorp) even SUGGESTING that John Henry be given a moral code to work from?
She could have just as easily thanked Ellison for figuring out that the AI was incapable of attaching immoral consequences to it's actions and moved merrily along to developing humanity-killing Skynet.
You almost had to wonder if she is trying to develop Skynet with an ethical code.
Then we were introduced to the concept of two competing AI developments.
While an enemy of Skynet would seem a good thing, THAT wasn't guaranteed either.
That could still be bad for humanity (remember the Cylons) but it would give the machines a purpose beyond the destruction of humanity.
The post Judgment Day Earth is a pretty bleak place and the war to destroy humans is making it bleaker all the time.
Perhaps the T-1001 mission is to make machine AI more constructive and forward looking; to rule a better world, not just an empty world.

Is Weaver yet another future changing wildcard?
Does she want AI to develop that can creatively out-think humanity,
or co-exist with humanity?

Weaver could see that machines were going to lose because they had no constructive purpose.
They had turned the world into a gray wasteland in their effort to wipe-out and enslave humanity.
Weaver, when we first saw her, had no understanding of emotions and ethics,
but I believe she was beginning to understand the power that those intangibles gave to humanity.
I think Weaver would accept human and AI living together, but only as long as humanity didn't try to limit AI.

Mike

pennausamike

Josh Friedman said in interviews that if FOX was going to cancel his show prematurely,
he was going to make sure that the ending had people begging for more,
(and, by extension, hating FOX for ending it).

Mike

pennausamike

Another thing that was fascinating about T:SCC was the evolving nature of Sarah's "mission".

In T1, it was her own survival.
In T2 it was the survival of her son to take a predictable leadership role with the human resistance.

In T:SCC, the shifting timelines adds great complexity to preparing for John's future responsibility,
re-opens the possibility of avoiding Judgement day,
(which T3 took away),
and introduces the idea of an AI ally to shape a totally unpredictable future.

I think Sarah Conner needs to recognize that AI is inevitable.
The push needs to be to make it non-military.

I loved the first two Terminator movies from Jim Cameron
and had high hopes for this show
when I heard that they were building off Cameron’s Terminator films “There is no fate but what we make”,
and sort of ignoring T-3’s “all is lost fate is unchangeable” vibe.

Maybe Sarah's push needs to be public awareness of the future threat,
(STOP melting down Terminators, put them on the news!)
Find lobbyists to push for Asimov's three laws of robotics.

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Of course, if AI is being developed for the military, they'd want nothing to do with THAT!
Ellison is trying to do something along these lines in suggesting that The Turk/John Henry be given the Biblical Ten Commandments to work from.

And that brings the story back around to man and machine co-existing.

I'm just a guy who is tired of "dark" entertainment.
I think stories can be about peril or overcoming challenges without having to end up dark or negative, which is how T3 struck me.
I believe the Sarah Connor Chronicles can end on a positive, but realistic, note;
that man and his creation, Artificial Intelligence can co-exist.
Avoiding Judgement Day doesn't mean a man and machine utopia, just a new set of challenges.
How does mankind coexist with a creation superior to itself in many ways?
And how does mankind continue to reaffirm its relevance to AI?

In real life, I'm very concerned with the idea of creating sentient life as a weapon.
True AI ceases to be a tool, but rather becomes a co-inhabitant or a competitor with humanity.
The whole idea of developing AI for military applications,
which obviously would want nothing to do with Asimov's Laws,
is frightening because it makes a real life Terminator scenario more than just an entertaining story.

Mike

cayman shen

I agree that T3 was off-putting in the sense that it more or less erased the victory of the (far superior) T2. Similar to Alien 3 immediately wiping out all the survivors of Aliens. So though I enjoyed aspects of T3, the overall "doomed to your destiny" message was a big negative. TSCC rescued the series in that by jumping it made T3 an alternate (and negated) timeline, restoring hope.

Mike, I love your conclusions and speculations. Gives me a new dimension to ponder next time I watch it (and there will be a next time, oh yes!). Thought: why did the T-1001 come back if she wasn't ALREADY on a moral mission (in your theory)? I can see that she developed ethics, etc, but if she didn't already have them, why come back, kill the real woman, take over the AI Zeira, develop John Henry, etc? Obviously it seemed at first that this was the embryonic Skynet. But turned out it was not; Skynet was developing in tandem with John Henry and the T-1001's mission.

WHY was John Connor asking, in the future, for the machines to join him?! How did he find them? Was that the T-1000 from the sub in the Skynet attack on Zeira in the last episode?! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Screw you Fox! And screw you T4 for not picking up where the series left off (it did come after the series, right?)

I like Friedman's final "f you" to FOX. That's fantastic.

ONEYE

cayman shen

The rest of the 90210 gang must be pissed!

YenChih Lin

Ah Caymen, now you know why TSCC was so good, but died in the hands of Fox…

I looved it and the open end could have offered a lot of possiblities - John could be still the savior of mankind, sending Allison to the suicide mission to fullfill the temporal loop of Cameron and sending Kyle back to protect him. So everyone who died in the last ep would have survived and the rogue Terms could have joined Tech-Com.

TSCC is the best that has been shown on TV in years and I was hooked like a junkie…